I think versions that run Tickatus/Y'shaarj or other corrupt cards aren't horrible but just not as viable right now. (Deck has too little ways to corrupt Tickatus)
I've actually found the Tickatus Control variant to be by far the strongest of the available options; I've been working my way up the ladder with it almost exclusively after having been away for awhile, and have met virtually no resistance. The thing that it's easy to overlook is that Rustwix is himself an enabler of Tickatus, since his one card turns into 3 primes that will all cost more than 6. (I've actually been running Free Admission in my version, since it lets you pull two minions relatively cheaply. If it's late and you haven't seen a 7+, you're guaranteed to hit something for 3 mana, but in a pinch, you can always throw down an uncorrupted Strongman.)
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and the soul shard package feels slightly inferior.
You could think of it as partial justification just for running Malicia, another Tickatus enabler, but I've also found it to be really helpful padding against other Control decks. If you want to get to Tickatus and friends quickly, you're often tapping enough to warrant the healing. But it definitely feels most potent if you match against any other Warlock. Heaven forbid you face another Control (or, more likely, Galakrond) Warlock running Tickatus... getting Soul Fragments shredded doesn't feel nearly so bad.
I think the point that AngryShuckie is making is about the PROBABILITY that a card shows up in the options, not whether it’s DISPLAYED more than once.
If you shuffle raptors with Queen Carnassa and have 5 other minions in the deck, the question isn’t whether Stitched Tracker will give you 3 raptors to pick from; its whether or not one of the Discover options is more likely to be a raptor because there are multiple copies in the deck.
No more exclusivity? Well, no more money from me Blizzard. I ain’t pre-ordering sh*t from now on since I can just wait for few years and get it for the actual price.
If you’re willing to wait literal YEARS for the aesthetic reward to come back around, I’m pretty sure that you’re a devoted enough player that you’re not going to be content with just F2P packs. They’ll get your money one way or the other.
Do people actually stockpile cards in hand in order to not be victim to Lazul? That doesn't seem like "playing around it." That seems like simply playing the way your deck is constructed to be played. (If you happen to have a large hand size, great. Or if you're running a combo-based deck where any single card alone is bad (/raises hand), fine. But I can't claim that the fact that my deck is "Lazul proof" is a "way to play around Lazul.") That's why the concept here is broken.
Unless, as YPN noted, you just happen to have a lot of bad things in your hand, you're actively giving your opponent a peek into the things you decided to run, and provided they have more than 3 firing brain cells, allows them to remove -- not copy, per Lazul, but remove -- whichever chess piece feels most vital. You can defeat Lazul by having a strategy that happens to frustrate her intent. This card lets your opponent defuse that strategy.
I think the better explanation than the other reply about Spectral Sight is that Demon Hunters are unique in being the only class whose interrupt skill feeds their resource generation. In groups, it's theoretically prudent to "leave interrupts" to your DH since it benefits them in a way that it doesn't anyone else.
So yes, breaking up their opponent's play is kind of on brand.
Most of the comments here have seemingly been directed at slow classes that are traditionally trying to build big hands. If you're a Warlock or a Priest, the optimists say, you can just "anticipate" Glide by playing out your hand before it swells to too tempting of a size for your opponent.
Setting aside whether or not that's a reasonable argument -- it isn't -- I also fear that one of the biggest problems this creates is allowing the DH to respond reactively to any effect that generates value in hand. Rogue's major legendary mechanics are all hand manipulation -- Toggwaggle's wand draws 0-cost cards, Galakrond draws 1-cost ones now, Hanar lets you pull secrets like Counterspell that don't exist for your class, even (the mostly unplayed, except by me) Anka the Buried converts your Deathrattle cards to 1-cost versions. With Glide in the meta, every single one of those actions is invalidated. The moment any of those cards hits the board, the DH should get Glide ready, because all your discounted or buffed cards now get dumped back into the deck naked, without any of their modifications.
Rogue Galakrond in effect becomes 7 mana, gain 5 armor. Togwaggle becomes a highly conditional 5/5. The only way to not "spoil" those turns is to play out every discounted card the turn it's drawn, but in most cases, that's actually impossible. This of course doesn't mean that the class is unplayable. There are obviously other match ups. But against any Demon Hunter opponent, I can't even imagine what a plausible path to victory would look like, since Glide actively blunts the underlying win condition(s).
I do take the OP’s point, however, that the dual class choices have reflected the “safest” possible lowest common denominator between the two classes, rather than something that might push both classes towards a new or joint identity.
Rogue legendaries have traditionally had novel mechanics, even if they didn’t always work. This is the first expansion in a long while where I don’t feel compelled to insta-craft either of the available options.
Hanar is so vital to the archetype that it really isn’t worth playing without him. I’d save myself some dust and not craft Bamboozle at all if you have to. The whole point of Hanar is to diversify the secret pool so that your opponent doesn’t know what you’re playing, or so that you can fish for something like Counterspell to play at the right moment. (Turn 9 Highlander Priest with Mass Rez or Plague of Death nullified?) It leads to a surprising number of autoconcedes.
If you’re serious about running secrets, start with Hanar, then Togwaggle. Love Edwin to death, but he isn’t essential.
Burgle also frustrates because it neutralizes hand reads. Most cards that are burgled are frankly terrible. Especially under the old Tess archetype, where you had to be extra careful to hunt for cards that couldn’t backfire. But the struggle of playing against the decks is that you seldom know what game plan the Rogue has had to steer into.
When I play Secret Rogue in standard, it’s now almost worth Shadowstepping Shadow Jeweler Hanar early just to set up a 3-4 secret chain on turn 6 or 7, when you might already have a taunt up to protect him anyways. About half of opponents will simply autoconcede — not because it’s a death sentence, but because it’s too frustrating to navigate the volume of conditions that will trigger something. Cast a spell, attack a minion, play a minion... and then, unless he’s killed, it all happens again the next turn.
This is dead on. The deck does not make sense without Hanar, and Kronx is probably fine to craft because he’s neutral. But this entire slate of Rogue legendaries are safe to craft if you plan to play the class at all.
I’ve seen A LOT more highlander priest at Diamond 5-1, supported by the new thief cards and Murozond, as well as some of what I guess can only be called.... “Aggro for priest priest,” since they actually drop minions inside of the first 6 turns.
Does resurrect come out? Absolutely. But it’s better than it’s been. I think it’s just that Priest players hate the archetype as much as everyone else does, so people are on the hunt for anything new. I should just concede to all these highlanders after 10 turns or something, just to motivate them to stick with it.
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Welcome to posting! This is a LOT. Before someone wades in, it might be worth qualifying up top just what it is you’re shooting for. The Priest redesign is an attempt to take a class that maybe had lost its way a little and to give it fresh parameters. What one goal are these changes trying to accomplish? Sure, Onyxia with a wall of taunts would make her better, but if the entire collection is power creeping, everything else is better too. Maybe even just focusing on underplayed cards and improving them would create a more consistent focus.
One wrench in a lot of these designs, at least for another year, is Zephrys. Pulling these versions of cards instead of his current pool would produce a noticeable tilt in outcomes. Healing Touch, for instance, is already a recommendation when you’re low on health. Should you really snag an added effect too?
So I disenchanted the nerfed cards Imprisoned Antaen and Skull of Gul'dan like all good people do..... You would assume that with the new duplicate protection rule that the next rares I opened (I have the rest from the set) would be those cards, right?
Except it wasn't - I got some random rares that I already have. Is this a bug, or have I misunderstood something? And has anyone else noticed this?
Cheers
No, this is working exactly as intended. The new rules apply not to whether or not you have a duplicate copy but whether you have opened that card before. (They made clear in the announcement that the duplicate counting system logs every time the card enters your possession; even if you dust the card, it's still marked as once owned by you.) This is intended to keep people from exploting exactly the dynamic you're describing. Otherwise you could create an endless loop of "dust nerfed card," "open nerfed card," "dust nerfed card," "open nerfed card," and on and on.
So uh...does anyone else have the issue that the cards are still unchanged in their collection, but when you click on them it says the were nerfed and you can get a full refund?
For the record, this was in the original announcement. When you PLAY the cards they'll show up with their new costs in green or red to signify the difference, but they will remain the same in your collection. I know that I was personally concerned that I'd somehow queue into an "unpatched" version against unnerfed decks, so dipped into Casual on my own DH and yep, there it was.
we're missing the point that DH is easily the most played class, where everybody has pratically all the cards for it and they all synergize very well while other classes after getting the revamp hammer due to new year rotation they are on the adapting period so the decks aren't crystal clear while DH is basically already optimized
^ This. There are like two viable decks you can run on DH, and it’s crystal clear how they should be assembled. Meanwhile, Rogues are out there remembering how to use Secrets again.
I started running Big Demon DH after hitting a wall on my main, and ended up feasting on the sudden influx of other DHs running the Aggro stuff. It is admittedly a little unbalanced when you can not play a single card until Turn 6 and still wipe the floor with your opponent. Oh wait, Rez Priest..
I've actually found the Tickatus Control variant to be by far the strongest of the available options; I've been working my way up the ladder with it almost exclusively after having been away for awhile, and have met virtually no resistance. The thing that it's easy to overlook is that Rustwix is himself an enabler of Tickatus, since his one card turns into 3 primes that will all cost more than 6. (I've actually been running Free Admission in my version, since it lets you pull two minions relatively cheaply. If it's late and you haven't seen a 7+, you're guaranteed to hit something for 3 mana, but in a pinch, you can always throw down an uncorrupted Strongman.)
You could think of it as partial justification just for running Malicia, another Tickatus enabler, but I've also found it to be really helpful padding against other Control decks. If you want to get to Tickatus and friends quickly, you're often tapping enough to warrant the healing. But it definitely feels most potent if you match against any other Warlock. Heaven forbid you face another Control (or, more likely, Galakrond) Warlock running Tickatus... getting Soul Fragments shredded doesn't feel nearly so bad.
I think the point that AngryShuckie is making is about the PROBABILITY that a card shows up in the options, not whether it’s DISPLAYED more than once.
If you shuffle raptors with Queen Carnassa and have 5 other minions in the deck, the question isn’t whether Stitched Tracker will give you 3 raptors to pick from; its whether or not one of the Discover options is more likely to be a raptor because there are multiple copies in the deck.
If you’re willing to wait literal YEARS for the aesthetic reward to come back around, I’m pretty sure that you’re a devoted enough player that you’re not going to be content with just F2P packs. They’ll get your money one way or the other.
I’ve had some fun with the Deathrattle off meta deck posted here on the front page recently.
Teron Gorefiend also continues to exist.
Do people actually stockpile cards in hand in order to not be victim to Lazul? That doesn't seem like "playing around it." That seems like simply playing the way your deck is constructed to be played. (If you happen to have a large hand size, great. Or if you're running a combo-based deck where any single card alone is bad (/raises hand), fine. But I can't claim that the fact that my deck is "Lazul proof" is a "way to play around Lazul.") That's why the concept here is broken.
Unless, as YPN noted, you just happen to have a lot of bad things in your hand, you're actively giving your opponent a peek into the things you decided to run, and provided they have more than 3 firing brain cells, allows them to remove -- not copy, per Lazul, but remove -- whichever chess piece feels most vital. You can defeat Lazul by having a strategy that happens to frustrate her intent. This card lets your opponent defuse that strategy.
I think the better explanation than the other reply about Spectral Sight is that Demon Hunters are unique in being the only class whose interrupt skill feeds their resource generation. In groups, it's theoretically prudent to "leave interrupts" to your DH since it benefits them in a way that it doesn't anyone else.
So yes, breaking up their opponent's play is kind of on brand.
Most of the comments here have seemingly been directed at slow classes that are traditionally trying to build big hands. If you're a Warlock or a Priest, the optimists say, you can just "anticipate" Glide by playing out your hand before it swells to too tempting of a size for your opponent.
Setting aside whether or not that's a reasonable argument -- it isn't -- I also fear that one of the biggest problems this creates is allowing the DH to respond reactively to any effect that generates value in hand. Rogue's major legendary mechanics are all hand manipulation -- Toggwaggle's wand draws 0-cost cards, Galakrond draws 1-cost ones now, Hanar lets you pull secrets like Counterspell that don't exist for your class, even (the mostly unplayed, except by me) Anka the Buried converts your Deathrattle cards to 1-cost versions. With Glide in the meta, every single one of those actions is invalidated. The moment any of those cards hits the board, the DH should get Glide ready, because all your discounted or buffed cards now get dumped back into the deck naked, without any of their modifications.
Rogue Galakrond in effect becomes 7 mana, gain 5 armor. Togwaggle becomes a highly conditional 5/5. The only way to not "spoil" those turns is to play out every discounted card the turn it's drawn, but in most cases, that's actually impossible. This of course doesn't mean that the class is unplayable. There are obviously other match ups. But against any Demon Hunter opponent, I can't even imagine what a plausible path to victory would look like, since Glide actively blunts the underlying win condition(s).
I do take the OP’s point, however, that the dual class choices have reflected the “safest” possible lowest common denominator between the two classes, rather than something that might push both classes towards a new or joint identity.
Rogue legendaries have traditionally had novel mechanics, even if they didn’t always work. This is the first expansion in a long while where I don’t feel compelled to insta-craft either of the available options.
Convincing Infiltrator, Mindflayer Kaahrj, Reliquary of Souls. The latter two are obviously more niche, but the former is more of a headache.
He already has Flik.
Hanar is so vital to the archetype that it really isn’t worth playing without him. I’d save myself some dust and not craft Bamboozle at all if you have to. The whole point of Hanar is to diversify the secret pool so that your opponent doesn’t know what you’re playing, or so that you can fish for something like Counterspell to play at the right moment. (Turn 9 Highlander Priest with Mass Rez or Plague of Death nullified?) It leads to a surprising number of autoconcedes.
If you’re serious about running secrets, start with Hanar, then Togwaggle. Love Edwin to death, but he isn’t essential.
Burgle also frustrates because it neutralizes hand reads. Most cards that are burgled are frankly terrible. Especially under the old Tess archetype, where you had to be extra careful to hunt for cards that couldn’t backfire. But the struggle of playing against the decks is that you seldom know what game plan the Rogue has had to steer into.
When I play Secret Rogue in standard, it’s now almost worth Shadowstepping Shadow Jeweler Hanar early just to set up a 3-4 secret chain on turn 6 or 7, when you might already have a taunt up to protect him anyways. About half of opponents will simply autoconcede — not because it’s a death sentence, but because it’s too frustrating to navigate the volume of conditions that will trigger something. Cast a spell, attack a minion, play a minion... and then, unless he’s killed, it all happens again the next turn.
Not if they’re tokens, even buffed ones, and all have the same health.
This is dead on. The deck does not make sense without Hanar, and Kronx is probably fine to craft because he’s neutral. But this entire slate of Rogue legendaries are safe to craft if you plan to play the class at all.
I’ve seen A LOT more highlander priest at Diamond 5-1, supported by the new thief cards and Murozond, as well as some of what I guess can only be called.... “Aggro for priest priest,” since they actually drop minions inside of the first 6 turns.
Does resurrect come out? Absolutely. But it’s better than it’s been. I think it’s just that Priest players hate the archetype as much as everyone else does, so people are on the hunt for anything new. I should just concede to all these highlanders after 10 turns or something, just to motivate them to stick with it.
Your bonus multiplier appears at the top right hand side of your portrait before you queue. If it doesn’t show there, you’ve reached the point where you won’t get a multiplier any longer this season.
Welcome to posting! This is a LOT. Before someone wades in, it might be worth qualifying up top just what it is you’re shooting for. The Priest redesign is an attempt to take a class that maybe had lost its way a little and to give it fresh parameters. What one goal are these changes trying to accomplish? Sure, Onyxia with a wall of taunts would make her better, but if the entire collection is power creeping, everything else is better too. Maybe even just focusing on underplayed cards and improving them would create a more consistent focus.
One wrench in a lot of these designs, at least for another year, is Zephrys. Pulling these versions of cards instead of his current pool would produce a noticeable tilt in outcomes. Healing Touch, for instance, is already a recommendation when you’re low on health. Should you really snag an added effect too?
No, this is working exactly as intended. The new rules apply not to whether or not you have a duplicate copy but whether you have opened that card before. (They made clear in the announcement that the duplicate counting system logs every time the card enters your possession; even if you dust the card, it's still marked as once owned by you.) This is intended to keep people from exploting exactly the dynamic you're describing. Otherwise you could create an endless loop of "dust nerfed card," "open nerfed card," "dust nerfed card," "open nerfed card," and on and on.
For the record, this was in the original announcement. When you PLAY the cards they'll show up with their new costs in green or red to signify the difference, but they will remain the same in your collection. I know that I was personally concerned that I'd somehow queue into an "unpatched" version against unnerfed decks, so dipped into Casual on my own DH and yep, there it was.
I upvoted this because I’m personally jazzed to play rogue again.
^ This. There are like two viable decks you can run on DH, and it’s crystal clear how they should be assembled. Meanwhile, Rogues are out there remembering how to use Secrets again.
I started running Big Demon DH after hitting a wall on my main, and ended up feasting on the sudden influx of other DHs running the Aggro stuff. It is admittedly a little unbalanced when you can not play a single card until Turn 6 and still wipe the floor with your opponent. Oh wait, Rez Priest..