Kelidan wasn't original? I've never seen an effect that happens on the turn you draw a card. It's not ultra over-the-top unique, but neither was Zilliax.
I think the problem is that it combos exclusively with Restless Mummy and Kargath Bladefist. You're better off with [Hearthstone Card (Bloodsworm Mercenary) Not Found] in most situations since no other rush minions have any sort of effect that's worth replicating like this.
I think this card definitely shouldn't be counted out, and it absolutely has it's upsides compared to Bloodsworn Mercenary, but I think more cards that have rush and have some sort of effect that makes it worth replicating.
My initial reaction was similar to everyone else, something along the lines of "holy balls this will get nerfed". But on second thought, maybe this isn't so broken as we think.
If you're playing Control vs. Tempo DH, you're playing your cheap cards to counter their cheap cards. Most, if not all Control decks have cheap removal to deal with aggro. If the DH plays this on 4, then you send all your expensive cards into your deck and refill your hand with new cards, and you get the first turn of full mana crystals to spend with the 4 new cards you got. This card actually puts you in a bad situation vs. Control decks since it encourages them to play more proactively and drop their cards and wait for you to refill their hand for them. And considering the fact that you'll only ever want to play this card when you've got less than 4 cards in hand, it will most likely be outcasted, thus playing into your opponent's game plan.
Think about it this way, how many times have you played against a Tempo DH where your hand is full of expensive cards that you want to keep and you're not being murdered? This is actually a perfect example of a card that promotes the skill of knowing what your opponent has any playing around it. By being less greedy in keeping your cards, you've negated the downside of the outcast of this card, and it's actually turned into an upside.
That said, this is still a really, really powerful card, and I've only judged it in a vacuum. You would also need to consider cards like Beaming Sidekick that make the board harder to remove. And there's no point just dumping a useless hand without dealing with the board, because the DH can just not play this card and you'll be effectively locked out of the game. So I wouldn't be surprised if this got nerfed, but I don't think it's going to be as problematic as people say it will be.
This is the first card that's been released that looks really powerful, but not "holy shit" powerful. It's actually a genuinely solid card that supports an archetype that already exists in a good way. There's not much more to it, it's just an honestly good card.
Oh and I guess this is a Paladin card too. Paladin has a decent array of spells that can be played on curve which is not too bad, but the real question is if this works with Librams after they've been discounted. Does a 4 mana Libram of Hope summon a 4/4 or an 8/8? And what happens if you play The Coin?
This card looks really strong, but I don't know if there's a spot for this in aggressive lists like Tempo DH or Dragon Hunter. On the other hand, Highlander Hunter and Control DH have just tasted Nirvana.
Shit dude, this expansion looks like it has the highest power level since K&C. I don't remember another expansion where so many cards gave me the "that's 5 stars, I'm going to despise this card and it's probably going to get nerfed" reaction.
Highlander Hunter has tons of rush minions and a few weapons to trade while their smaller minions go face. There's also been a Control DH list that's started to pop up, and like Highlander Hunter, also has tons of rush and weapons to trade with minions.
Getting to play a free 8/8 alongside another big thing or spell in the late game is pretty good. Unless this was topdecked though, because then yes, it's pretty bad.
I think Rogue's only (viable) weapons thus far are Waggle Pick and [Hearthstone Card (Hooke Scimitar) Not Found], and both of those enforce a tempo playstyle that simply doesn't exist; Galakrond is also probably just better unless we get some really strong tempo oriented cards, which is entirely possible. As for Warrior, I don't think this will see play in the Egg lists because it can only ever summon a 2 drop and there isn't really a slot or the card anyways. As for Pirate, they also run the 2 attack weapons, but some lists do run a copy or two of Arcanite Reaper, but I doubt this would be played just for that. So in conclusion, not excited about this card unless we see a lot of really cool weapons or weapon synergies, and considering we still have about more than 100 cards in the set, it looks like Warrior/Rogue will lean towards some weapon-y tempo deck.
We said that Druid and Hunter share big Beasts synergy. On the other hand though, they also share the ability to go wide with tokens/small beasts, thus the prediction of some sort of Swarm support.
Ah I see, I definitely misunderstood the message there. As for your second point, you're right, those cards completely slipped my mind. I suppose we'll just have to see, maybe Blizzard prints some good beast buffs or deathrattle to make the porcupine and lion viable.
I want to point something out about the Druid/Hunter section. You mentioned that both Druid and Hunter have strong swarming tools, and you gave examples such as Glowfly Swarm and The Forest's Aid. However, Shan'do Wildclaw targets the minions (specifically, beasts) in your deck only, not hand or board, meaning you're going to need to run a lot of beasts in order to get any value out of the first part of their ability. This means cards like Glowfly Swarm and The Forest's Aid won't work with them, making me think Druid's going to make use of the "copy a beast" part of the ability while Hunter will make use of the "give beasts +1/+1" part.
Another thing I want to point out is about how much people are freaking out about Shan'do Wildclaw + Dinotamer Brann for a casual 16 damage and 2 8/8s on the board, but running Shan'do exclusively for that combo is likely going to make the deck worse, since it's a dead card until you draw Brann and have 10 mana. You could use this with Zixor, Apex Predator, but especially now that decks are starting to run Nagrand Slam as well means that it's probably not worth it in most cases.
Then again, these are just my two cents, I could be entirely wrong.
I think he meant he hopes it works on tokens from spells after you cast Fluffy Fight. Considering the way these effects have worked before, if you cast Fluffy Fight then something like Dreamway Guardians, the tokens will not get the +4/+4 buff.
People are falling heads over heels for these cards saying they're insanely strong, but I highly doubt it.
Many people have mentioned Fluffy Fight's interaction with Kael'thas Sunstrider, but that requires you to play a lot of small spells to ensure you can get your big spells for free, but that means you're probably not playing any minions. And considering the way effects like this have worked in the past, this doesn't activate on summoned minions, which means you can't get value out of Druid's token spells or Exotic Mountseller, unless you save it until you get your combo off, but even then you're just buffing a board that can get wiped and you've effectively wasted the card, since there are no other minions in your deck to benefit from it.
About the Broom, I don't think it's as bonkers as people say either. The biggest factor of this card is that it's a battlecry that gives minions rush, meaning you have to play this on the same turn as you play other minions, because otherwise you lose the battlecry effect. In a big minion deck, that may mean one minion versus your opponent's giant board. While I do agree that the card is strong and can make some big plays, I doubt it's as amazing as people think it to be. I think this card excels in the midgame with decks that have multiple 3 or 4 drops to play and then give rush to value trade the opponent's board.
I agree that it gives you options you wouldn't have otherwise based on the board, but I feel like that eventually, players will learn the effects of the card and know what to play around based on the board. If it was instead the Boomsday board, you will know to consider holding at least one removal spell on the account that your opponent may drop a 7/7 taunt Transfer Student.
Your case was unique since it was randomly discovered, but I've also had games where I discover Veranus against a Spell Druid as well which also won me the game, but I got it off Primordial Explorer. Some games in Hearthstone do end because of something like Primordial Glyph > Primordial Glyph > Primordial Glyph > Pyroblast, but the odds that actually happens often are extremely low. Moments like these are not reliable win conditions, it's just that a card you happen to play in your deck happens to have been able to execute a nutty combo that won you the game (like in the case of [Hearthstone Card (Edwin Van Cleef) Not Found], people don't play him to get a 12/12 on turn 4, but because he's just a good card, and he can just so happen to sometimes be a 12/12 on turn 4).
Now I'm not saying this kind of out-of-your-control variance is a good thing. In fact, I think the vast disparity in power level between the boards (a Shotbot on the Uldum board compared to a better EVIL Cable Rat on the RoS board) is what's cause for concern. Perhaps these moments where the stars align won't be too frequent, else there's probably going to be some controversy around this card, potentially even seeing it banned in tournaments because of how swingy it is.
I do like that some classes have the ability to refill their hand easily like Rogue while other classes are forced to make do with what they have in their hand like Priest. It allows Blizzard to print cards that are stronger on their own for the classes that don't have much draw since they will need as good options as the classes that can draw a lot. For example, Blizzard is able to print quite powerful aggressive tools for Warrior since all they really have is Battle Rage, but they need to tone the power down for Rogue since they have access to Galakrond, the Nightmare and Heistbaron Togwaggle. However, this weakness got blown out of proportion when it came to DoD and AoO. It has now become a problem of card advantage, where even if your opponent has cards in hand that are stronger than yours, simply having so many more puts you in a substantially better position.
I think the reason they're nerfing those decks as opposed to others is less so because it's strong and moreso because it's not fun to play against.
Quote From HS_Alec
These decks play in a one-player fashion similar to other decks we've nerfed in the past.
As much as combo decks are fun to play (I loved the double OTK Paladin with the DK and Shirvallah), it feels really bad when all they do is cast power removal spells then blast you in the face. It's like playing Solitaire, where you surviving till your combo is like revealing the cards, setting up the aces and the kings, and the actual combo is when you can drag all the cards into the piles one after another.
Kelidan wasn't original? I've never seen an effect that happens on the turn you draw a card. It's not ultra over-the-top unique, but neither was Zilliax.
I think the problem is that it combos exclusively with Restless Mummy and Kargath Bladefist. You're better off with [Hearthstone Card (Bloodsworm Mercenary) Not Found] in most situations since no other rush minions have any sort of effect that's worth replicating like this.
I think this card definitely shouldn't be counted out, and it absolutely has it's upsides compared to Bloodsworn Mercenary, but I think more cards that have rush and have some sort of effect that makes it worth replicating.
My initial reaction was similar to everyone else, something along the lines of "holy balls this will get nerfed". But on second thought, maybe this isn't so broken as we think.
If you're playing Control vs. Tempo DH, you're playing your cheap cards to counter their cheap cards. Most, if not all Control decks have cheap removal to deal with aggro. If the DH plays this on 4, then you send all your expensive cards into your deck and refill your hand with new cards, and you get the first turn of full mana crystals to spend with the 4 new cards you got. This card actually puts you in a bad situation vs. Control decks since it encourages them to play more proactively and drop their cards and wait for you to refill their hand for them. And considering the fact that you'll only ever want to play this card when you've got less than 4 cards in hand, it will most likely be outcasted, thus playing into your opponent's game plan.
Think about it this way, how many times have you played against a Tempo DH where your hand is full of expensive cards that you want to keep and you're not being murdered? This is actually a perfect example of a card that promotes the skill of knowing what your opponent has any playing around it. By being less greedy in keeping your cards, you've negated the downside of the outcast of this card, and it's actually turned into an upside.
That said, this is still a really, really powerful card, and I've only judged it in a vacuum. You would also need to consider cards like Beaming Sidekick that make the board harder to remove. And there's no point just dumping a useless hand without dealing with the board, because the DH can just not play this card and you'll be effectively locked out of the game. So I wouldn't be surprised if this got nerfed, but I don't think it's going to be as problematic as people say it will be.
Also sad Sprint noises.
This is the first card that's been released that looks really powerful, but not "holy shit" powerful. It's actually a genuinely solid card that supports an archetype that already exists in a good way. There's not much more to it, it's just an honestly good card.
Ok, Big Warrior is on the menu. Troublemaker, Rattlegore, The Boom Reaver, Dimensional Ripper, and now this. The stars align too perfectly for this to not be the archetype Blizzard planned for Warrior.
Oh and I guess this is a Paladin card too. Paladin has a decent array of spells that can be played on curve which is not too bad, but the real question is if this works with Librams after they've been discounted. Does a 4 mana Libram of Hope summon a 4/4 or an 8/8? And what happens if you play The Coin?
This card looks really strong, but I don't know if there's a spot for this in aggressive lists like Tempo DH or Dragon Hunter. On the other hand, Highlander Hunter and Control DH have just tasted Nirvana.
Shit dude, this expansion looks like it has the highest power level since K&C. I don't remember another expansion where so many cards gave me the "that's 5 stars, I'm going to despise this card and it's probably going to get nerfed" reaction.
Highlander Hunter has tons of rush minions and a few weapons to trade while their smaller minions go face. There's also been a Control DH list that's started to pop up, and like Highlander Hunter, also has tons of rush and weapons to trade with minions.
Getting to play a free 8/8 alongside another big thing or spell in the late game is pretty good. Unless this was topdecked though, because then yes, it's pretty bad.
I think Rogue's only (viable) weapons thus far are Waggle Pick and [Hearthstone Card (Hooke Scimitar) Not Found], and both of those enforce a tempo playstyle that simply doesn't exist; Galakrond is also probably just better unless we get some really strong tempo oriented cards, which is entirely possible. As for Warrior, I don't think this will see play in the Egg lists because it can only ever summon a 2 drop and there isn't really a slot or the card anyways. As for Pirate, they also run the 2 attack weapons, but some lists do run a copy or two of Arcanite Reaper, but I doubt this would be played just for that. So in conclusion, not excited about this card unless we see a lot of really cool weapons or weapon synergies, and considering we still have about more than 100 cards in the set, it looks like Warrior/Rogue will lean towards some weapon-y tempo deck.
Ah I see, I definitely misunderstood the message there. As for your second point, you're right, those cards completely slipped my mind. I suppose we'll just have to see, maybe Blizzard prints some good beast buffs or deathrattle to make the porcupine and lion viable.
I want to point something out about the Druid/Hunter section. You mentioned that both Druid and Hunter have strong swarming tools, and you gave examples such as Glowfly Swarm and The Forest's Aid. However, Shan'do Wildclaw targets the minions (specifically, beasts) in your deck only, not hand or board, meaning you're going to need to run a lot of beasts in order to get any value out of the first part of their ability. This means cards like Glowfly Swarm and The Forest's Aid won't work with them, making me think Druid's going to make use of the "copy a beast" part of the ability while Hunter will make use of the "give beasts +1/+1" part.
Another thing I want to point out is about how much people are freaking out about Shan'do Wildclaw + Dinotamer Brann for a casual 16 damage and 2 8/8s on the board, but running Shan'do exclusively for that combo is likely going to make the deck worse, since it's a dead card until you draw Brann and have 10 mana. You could use this with Zixor, Apex Predator, but especially now that decks are starting to run Nagrand Slam as well means that it's probably not worth it in most cases.
Then again, these are just my two cents, I could be entirely wrong.
I understand what you mean to say, but I couldn't help but think that a Mage with a spooky twist is just a Warlock.
Huh, I didn't know that. It reminds me of a bug where you could put cards form another class in your deck by copying the deckcode.
Wait, I thought you couldn't play DH in this brawl?
It literally says in the post, "Demon Hunter is NOT available for play in this week's Brawl - good call, Blizzard!" or have I misunderstood something?
I think he meant he hopes it works on tokens from spells after you cast Fluffy Fight. Considering the way these effects have worked before, if you cast Fluffy Fight then something like Dreamway Guardians, the tokens will not get the +4/+4 buff.
People are falling heads over heels for these cards saying they're insanely strong, but I highly doubt it.
Many people have mentioned Fluffy Fight's interaction with Kael'thas Sunstrider, but that requires you to play a lot of small spells to ensure you can get your big spells for free, but that means you're probably not playing any minions. And considering the way effects like this have worked in the past, this doesn't activate on summoned minions, which means you can't get value out of Druid's token spells or Exotic Mountseller, unless you save it until you get your combo off, but even then you're just buffing a board that can get wiped and you've effectively wasted the card, since there are no other minions in your deck to benefit from it.
About the Broom, I don't think it's as bonkers as people say either. The biggest factor of this card is that it's a battlecry that gives minions rush, meaning you have to play this on the same turn as you play other minions, because otherwise you lose the battlecry effect. In a big minion deck, that may mean one minion versus your opponent's giant board. While I do agree that the card is strong and can make some big plays, I doubt it's as amazing as people think it to be. I think this card excels in the midgame with decks that have multiple 3 or 4 drops to play and then give rush to value trade the opponent's board.
I agree that it gives you options you wouldn't have otherwise based on the board, but I feel like that eventually, players will learn the effects of the card and know what to play around based on the board. If it was instead the Boomsday board, you will know to consider holding at least one removal spell on the account that your opponent may drop a 7/7 taunt Transfer Student.
Your case was unique since it was randomly discovered, but I've also had games where I discover Veranus against a Spell Druid as well which also won me the game, but I got it off Primordial Explorer. Some games in Hearthstone do end because of something like Primordial Glyph > Primordial Glyph > Primordial Glyph > Pyroblast, but the odds that actually happens often are extremely low. Moments like these are not reliable win conditions, it's just that a card you happen to play in your deck happens to have been able to execute a nutty combo that won you the game (like in the case of [Hearthstone Card (Edwin Van Cleef) Not Found], people don't play him to get a 12/12 on turn 4, but because he's just a good card, and he can just so happen to sometimes be a 12/12 on turn 4).
Now I'm not saying this kind of out-of-your-control variance is a good thing. In fact, I think the vast disparity in power level between the boards (a Shotbot on the Uldum board compared to a better EVIL Cable Rat on the RoS board) is what's cause for concern. Perhaps these moments where the stars align won't be too frequent, else there's probably going to be some controversy around this card, potentially even seeing it banned in tournaments because of how swingy it is.
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Totally a coincidence, btw.
I do like that some classes have the ability to refill their hand easily like Rogue while other classes are forced to make do with what they have in their hand like Priest. It allows Blizzard to print cards that are stronger on their own for the classes that don't have much draw since they will need as good options as the classes that can draw a lot. For example, Blizzard is able to print quite powerful aggressive tools for Warrior since all they really have is Battle Rage, but they need to tone the power down for Rogue since they have access to Galakrond, the Nightmare and Heistbaron Togwaggle. However, this weakness got blown out of proportion when it came to DoD and AoO. It has now become a problem of card advantage, where even if your opponent has cards in hand that are stronger than yours, simply having so many more puts you in a substantially better position.
I think the reason they're nerfing those decks as opposed to others is less so because it's strong and moreso because it's not fun to play against.
As much as combo decks are fun to play (I loved the double OTK Paladin with the DK and Shirvallah), it feels really bad when all they do is cast power removal spells then blast you in the face. It's like playing Solitaire, where you surviving till your combo is like revealing the cards, setting up the aces and the kings, and the actual combo is when you can drag all the cards into the piles one after another.